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Tuesday, March 08, 2005

Hate Mail for Jes

Dude, guys... I posted that article, and I got this response:

I have been a vegan for 8 years now. I do it for personal reasons. I have no problems with people who eat meat. I would prefer they do not, but I am not morally confused as to the value of human life over animal life. I would put a years tuition that you are a secularist. For only a morally confused person equates the value of animals with people. So the killing of 6 million chickens is equal to the killing of 6 million Jews? You are also, obviously, a left-winger. Only an issue that is led by ones compassion over reason and religious values can make the statement that "there is no morally relevant difference between animals and babies". If your dog (that you loved) and a complete stranger were drowning, who would you save? Either this will reaffirm your stance, or will cause you to reconsider (hopefully). I feel sorry for people who have tried to be vegetarians and can not because they need meat. Yes, some people do need it. Whether it is due to their blood-type or other biology, they need it. Without moral clarity, and without a fixed moral compass (usually derived from religious texts; not from the PETA manual), this is what secular thinking brings one to. Compassion over standards and emotions over rationality. By the way, I think eating dairy is more illogical than eating meat. For us humans are the only species on the planet that uses milk from another animal (intended for their baby), and use it ourselves. How can educated people believe that chickens "suffer" (as opposed to feel some primitive form of physical pain) in any way even remotely comparable to the self-aware, self-conscious, emotional human being? How does contemporary society produce these frightening idiots in such enormous numbers?

The most important reason is secularism. As G.K. Chesterton said about a hundred years ago: "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing, they believe in anything." Those prophetic words restated what the Psalmist wrote 2,500 years before: "Wisdom begins with fear of God." (Oh, yes, that terrible "G" word. It just hurts, doesn't it?)

No God, no wisdom.

The death of God-based values is the major reason for the moral wasteland known as the university, the one place where America is regarded as a villain and the U.N. as morally progressive; where male and female are regarded as subjective constructs, not naturally distinctive identities; where Fidel Castro is a hero and Palestinian terrorists are freedom fighters.

And secularism explains the widespread belief in the equivalence of people and animals. The breakdown of belief in the God of the Bible has led to the demise of the belief in the sanctity of human life. If human beings are not regarded as created in God's image, but only in the image of animals, there is no reason to regard human life as worth more than that of an animal, including chickens. It is not a coincidence that no mainstream Jewish or Christian denomination, no matter how liberal, agrees with PETA's campaign or teaches its adherents that humans and animals are of equal worth. You have to enter the moral chaos of full-blown secularism to believe that people burned alive, slowly frozen to death, medically experimented on, stripped naked and machine gunned family-by-family, forced to watch their children burned, or slowly asphyxiated in gas chambers suffer no more than slaughtered chickens, and that both acts are morally identical. It is impossible to believe in any normative expression of Judeo-Christian values and believe this.

This guy hate me. I have never felt so good.

Why does it rock so hard to piss people off. The world may never know.



Blogger jes said...

This guy may have a few points. here is my response to him:

So, to summarize the last 2/3rds of what you wrote, you think I believe what I do because of religious beliefs? That is false. I wrote an entire article showing why I believe what I do, that had nothing to do with God. My beliefs about God are incidental.

You misunderstand what it would mean for animals to have rights. To save a drowning human over a dog not say anything about rights. To argue by analogy, if you were downing, and my sister was drowning, I would save her. No question. Don’t you still have rights? Aren’t you still entitled to certain basic treatment? I should think so. Your reference to the holocaust deserves the same response.

Regarding pain and animals, while there may be some debate over the amount of pain an animal can feel, pain is not a crucial premise of either argument in the article.

The only thing the article would suggest is that we are not justified in treating animals they way we do BECAUSE they are animals, and that we need to find some morally relevant property of them being animals to justify the way we treat them, which you failed to do.

It seems you have placed humans on a golden plane of importance above animals, with no back up to your argument except for an appeal to God, (which incidentally, you neglected to argue for). In other words, what makes humans so special? God? How do you justify your belief in God. How happy I would be if your response echoed something to the effect of “because human are so special”. Could I be so lucky? Hopefully not, though I would be equally pleased with a reliance on the bible to justify your position.

And on a personal note, I am economically conservative. Though, I am an Atheist, you would be better served to attack the argument at hand and not my views on God.
God, is THIS a good debate topic?

11:33 AM  
Blogger Tim Black said...

Thanks to Pissed-Off God Boy for a case study in ad hominem argumentation. Bravo, Pissed-Off God Boy! (ASIDE: Why are so many God boys and girls pissed off? Why are they so angry? I mean, they know it ALL, don't they? They know what's right, what's wrong, that I'm wrong, and that logical argumentation is suspect precisely because it is logical. God Herself would NEVER go in for LOGIC, and She certainly wouldn't want US to do so. As long as all our 'arguments' appeal in some way or other to God, they're OK and fully endorsable; logic be damned!)

12:03 PM  
Blogger jes said...

I once over heard a priest tell logic where to shove it. True story.

12:11 PM  
Blogger mel mel said...

well, we all know why God-Boys and Girls get pissed off--because they are threatened. One of my bestest friends in philosophy is a firm believer and I'm a firm non-believer--I once asked said friend "why do you believe in God?" and the reply was "because I "have" to." to which I again inquired, "why to do you have to?" and once more it came back "I have to." There was no explanation as to why they "had to" - yes it's a matter of faith I imagine, and indeed faith can be "construed" in several ways--such as though some people wouldn't know it, I consider myself optimistic--and thus I have "faith" that good shall overcome evil, etc. But--well, oh -well---- I too think the fellow who replied strayed a bit on Jes's topic--which was "rights" and not so much "are animals more important or better than people" (and we KNOW that some "animals" are--many horses and cats and dogs I know would strongly attest to this)!

So, go Jes--you tell them girlfriend!


3:31 PM  
Blogger Tami said...

When do we get to feed the God-people to the Lions????

5:21 PM  
Blogger jes said...

about 1500 years ago.

5:59 PM  
Blogger Tami said...

damn you mean I missed it

8:10 PM  
Blogger Danny said...

"the killing of 6 million chickens is equal to the killing of 6 million Jews"

No one's saying that...
They're fuckin' Jews...

9:43 PM  
Blogger Bernie said...

Playing devil’s advocate (which in the dedicto sense, is calling God the devil).

Theists are sensitive about “god talk,” and maybe we should be more understanding of their ideas regardless of how bad they are. Theists typically are more emotionally tied to their beliefs than atheists. -this accounts for their poignantly bad arguments.

12:29 PM  
Blogger jes said...

Why would you be understanding of a bad idea. At any rate, not all theistic views are bad. In fact, there are some which are quite compelling. This one, of course, is not one of those.

8:38 PM  

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